"Tithing" To Alleviate Debt
Submitted by Wayne on Sun, 2008-09-07 10:25.
Our pastor started today with a recognition of the church's 1.8 million dollars of debt, and then he recited Malachi 3:10 as a means of asking for more "tithes" from the congregation to help pay off the debt. Judging from the attendence, taking on 3+ million dollars of debt (now 1.8M) for the latest building program was quite unnecessary (even if an incorporated church were to own land legitimately). Now he regrets the debt. Duh. He wants "tithes" to fix his mistake, yet doesn't even understand that Biblical tithes cannot be money, nor is the local, corporate church a "storehouse".
the points
Submitted by Wayne on Mon, 2008-09-08 08:13.
Having composed this brief blog entry during church and on my PDA, I was probably less than clear about the points I was making. Here's what I intended to be gleaned from my brief post:
- Malachi 3:10 in this context is actually an attempt to promote prosperity doctrine, a heresy.
- The church was not justified in diving into 3 million bucks of debt to begin with. The church growth just wasn't there. We've seen this stupid mistake made time and again.
- It's easily argued that the whole idea of a church corporation even existing, let alone owning property (not to mention millions of dollars of property), is unbiblical.
- The modern church is not a Biblical storehouse.
- Biblical tithes are not money--can't be. This is a big scam the church has been successfully pulling on believers for centuries.
I won't even go into the whole bogus doctrine about debt that's floating around the church today. Dave Ramsey and con artists like him are getting rich off the Biblical ignorance of believers. For shame!
Tithing
Submitted by Anthony (not verified) on Mon, 2008-09-08 09:08.
You just nailed one of my pet peeves. I stopped “tithing” almost a year ago after reading what the bible actually said about it. God did not strike my family with calamity, famine or disease or sick the devil on us as a result. Have you read Graeme Carle’s Eating Sacred Cows? It’s available on line and is the best Biblical discussion of what a tithe was and how it was used I have ever read.
Most modern church teaching on tithing is sound ONLY if you start from the unbiblical assumption that tithing means giving 10% of your income. Funny how the entire teaching falls when you apply the biblical definition. The verse that Graeme quoted that set me free was Deuteronomy 14:23-26 paraphrased, “If you as the tither lived too far away from Jerusalem to transport your tithe there, sell it, take the money to Jerusalem and buy whatever your heart desires, food, wine, beer, and eat it in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.” When is the last time you heard a pastor tell you to use your tithe to take a 10-day Napa Valley wine tour vacation? Ironically, that’s more ‘biblical’ than giving 10% of your income.
Our last church had a $7M debt for the new building, the land had been paid off, and after 5 years it was almost half-way paid off. They did pay cash for a $500K improvement to the kids wing which I thought was cool.
One thing though. I’ve read Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover and there is no mention of the modern practice of tithing in there. In that book he is very big on paying off all debts, enjoying the fruits of your labor and giving to help people.
Preach it!
Submitted by Wayne on Mon, 2008-09-08 09:41.
Amen, Anthony! That passage in Deut. was the kicker for me, too. And the N.T. makes it clear: all that you have--not just 10%--is God's. You're just His steward for managing His stuff for a time.
I haven't read the Cow book, but I will now. Thanks for the pointer.
As for Ramsey, I'll say this: most of what he teaches is reasonable. The "envelope" method of budgeting is a good idea, though far from new. Debt, as a rule, is a snare for many people. It's like meat offered to idols. In the end, it's just meat and is not inherently evil. Of course, most people can't handle meat/debt properly, so for them, they should avoid it. Even though much of his teaching is sound--common sense, really--nickel and diming his followers for his brand of tools to do what is just common sense is pretty shameful, in my opinion. He's taking advantage of weak people. Some of his advice is pretty poor, too (e.g., taking on second jobs--I've seen fathers all but abandon their families while working 80+ hr/wk). I see Ramsey as being on par with Covey. The info in their books is just common sense, nothing new, and certainly not worth paying money for, yet they seem to have built mini-empires selling unnecessary aids for "their" methods. Covey is not a Christian (he's Mormon), and I have a hard time seeing Ramsey's actions as being wholly ethical either.
Ramsey believes in tithing
Submitted by Charla on Mon, 2008-09-08 09:38.
It may not be in his books, but Dave Ramsey has repeatedly driven home the point on his radio show that while his family got out of debt after going bankrupt, that they tithed first and then paid their bills. He tells his listeners that they have to make the decision for themselves on whether they tithe or not, but he believes he's holding himself accountable by telling his story of tithing and debt payment. I think he's doing this to appease the millions of Christians who believe their pastors' erroneous teachings on tithing, and to keep them listening and buying his products. It makes him a "shining" example for them to follow. 
I reiterate my point about Wayne's pastor that I think it's disgusting that he chose Malachi 3:10 as his rallying cry when he should have done further study in the other parts of the OT to find a much better and fiscally sound way to pay off debt. The point that he allowed the church to get into such debt is moot now. It just sounds like he continues to lead the congregation from one bad decision to another, probably with the majority's permission. (Of course, not you Wayne but you get my jest.)
Pastor's vision
Submitted by Wayne on Mon, 2008-09-08 09:55.
Our pastor made a few things clear to us when we first inquired about joining the church:
1. If you become a member, you are signing up to his vision for the church. That's a tall order. It's tough for me to trust church leaders these days, as I've yet to find any that lead in Godly fashion. This pastor is no different.
2. Implied was that any ministry that counted as ministry was to be done at his church and with his blessing. Anything else was "rogue", so to speak. As my family's ministries are all outside the incorporated church, we quickly understood they (our ministries) were not welcome there nor would they be accepted, let alone endorsed.
3. He expects all to "tithe".
Needless to say, we have yet to join. We are "regular attenders" only and use their foibles as learning opportunities (after all, we're homeschoolers, so everything is a learning opportunity). Also, they'll never get a dime from us for their own purposes. Any money given is earmarked for real ministry, not church expenses. The only way we'll stop this "tithing" abuse is to bankrupt the greedy corporations ("churches" as they're almost erroneously called today).
Having said all this about our church--which I prefer to keep nameless--I can say this wonderful thing: we do indeed know of a ministry that is well run and serves the Lord well. Expenses are minimal and directly go toward spreading the Gospel, not to mention ministering to fellow believers. It's not perfect, and it struggles financially, but it's one of very few in which I can believe and wholeheartedly endorse and support.
He's got it wrong
Yeah, that's a pretty bad verse to be using to justify debt payments.
In the church where I was saved back in '92, our pastor didn't use this verse for debt payments. He actually had a pretty good understanding on what the Bible says about paying off debt. Our church had a debt payment plan, and each family could decide in their hearts what they wanted to give toward the repayment, above their tithes and offerings, based on "what ya have, not what ya don't have." (That phrase was used a lot.
) He put a visual up on the wall for everyone to see...blue strips of tape. Each strip of tape represented a small portion of the debt that would be paid that week. Each strip equaled about $3,500. Each week during the service, he would get up on the ladder and rip off a strip of tape for the extra payment we sent to the bank, and then throw the strip to someone in the congregation. It was truly motivating and our church as a whole was quite excited to see each strip get ripped off the wall, especially when it was not just one strip but two or three in one week. I actually still have two strips taped inside the back of my Bible.
We paid off the church mortgage early and when we did, he had a mortgage burning party. He actually burned up the mortgage in front of all of us! That truly was a lot of fun and the whole experience is something that I will never forget. (This probably sounds something like a youngster would say, but I dream of being able to burn up our mortgage one day.)
There's a passage in the Bible where the Israelites (?) collected all of their fine gold, precious gems, etc., and put them all together and sold them to build their new building. I can't remember where it is but I have heard that used as a Biblical example for how to create the funds needed to build church buildings, without using tithes and offerings. Your pastor should really look into that (if he can be convinced of his error).